I’m going to be honest with you here so let me start with a simple premise: I realize that I am a pervert. This is who I am. I am comfortable with it. People love me for who I am. Meanwhile, I only take anything I say as half serious. So should you. The point of being a Sophist is in the arguing, not necessarily the soundness of the argument. Now, let’s discuss…
Long as I can remember, I’ve stared at women’s breasts. I’m talking, here, about the specific glance that all guys are keenly aware of, to ‘gaze fixedly’ as it were. This is the committed glance. The one you can’t quite back out of with any grace were you to be caught. Maybe you just meet a girl, and you’re glancing for the first time, maybe you’ve known her for a long time. Maybe she’s wearing something that really shows them off and you think to yourself, ‘huh, wonder what the rest of those look like.’ The point is, you’ve got to look, and it’s just a matter of how you’re going to get away with it.
I was reminded recently how much of a problem this was for me during puberty, figuring this out. The real problem is that I’m pretty sure I wasn’t very good at doing it gracefully, more the none-too-subtle type that’s a glance akin to a dog trained on an impending throw. I was wondering what women thought about this. What’s it like for them growing up with this, and do they have an appreciation for the male perspective (so to speak)?
First off, let’s get this issue of “why we do it” just right out of the way. We have to. Simple as that. And maybe it’s not all of us. Maybe it’s justsome guys who are really concerned with the qualities of your every curve but, for those guys, it’s not a question of why, it’s just a matter of how. I’m of the ilk who believes strongly in evolutionary biology, so I’ll cite that as my reason (of course, I’m not conscious of it during the gaze, but it makes for a fair rationalization after the fact).
Men and women both look for signs of a health in all potential mates. Saying someone is attractive means, “If I had sex with them, my babies would do well.” It’s only natural. This, being necessary for our survival as a species, is right up there with clean water and fresh air. Women, it’s often proposed, tend to look for strength in their partners, in reliability and in self-confidence. They want a straight jaw and muscular build. Breasts, I submit, are the cues for we breast-men. Though certainly not the only factor in reviewing a potential female mate (and aren’t they all potential, in our minds), breasts are as varied as the people they are attached to, and it takes a long time to feel we really have a grasp on them (I’ve been reviewing my girlfriend’s breasts for nearly two years now, and I still find them a fascinating source of study). So, just as a woman might fawn over a jaw or confidence, so too men are drawn to women’s breasts.
We love them. We want to know more about them. And it’s not just a size thing. Sure, size is intriguing (for example, I don’t know a woman alive who hasn’t stopped to examine another woman’s large purse, groping and grappling with the thing, fascinated by what she could do with all of that extra volume) but really it’s quality we’re after.
We’re gathering information. We want to know shape and texture, coloring, positioning. We love to guess, but we don’t really care if we’re right. Of course, the trouble is the verifying. Actually, the trouble is even gathering enough information to make a sound guess.
The damn things are hidden.
We’re trying to survive here, and you’re wearing the UCLA sweater.
This premise of looking as a natural part of being male brings me to the problem of being a young man. I liked breasts, liked them a lot, and all of a sudden, girls I knew, girls who sat just three or four desks over in 2nd period English LIt, they started getting them. But the catch is that the damn things are on their chests, and it’s damn near impossible (though my cousin claimed his friend, Chris, could do it) to both look a girl in the eyes and the breasts, simultaneously. Any other situation and such a setup would be great. Imagine if I loved braces, or acne. Boom, right there on the face, no problem. With breasts, I knew I risked getting caught but, hell, I had to, right? So I looked. Let’s be frank, I leered. I was young. It was a whole new situation to negotiate. I probably owe at least twenty-three, variously built girls thoughtful letters explaining the matter delicately; it was that bad. And what I’m saying here is that, though I have no direct proof, I retain a strong faith that, were girls the type of creature to really carve notes into the bathroom, there would be a list of especially curious little boys with my name right on top.
At twenty-seven, I haven’t stopped. The difference now, however, is two-fold. Firstly, given as much practice as I have had, I have refined my stealing glances to be subtler, more respectful, and much shorter in duration. Stare at enough of anything and you’re bound to get quicker at the judgments. The second difference is that I don’t really care anymore about the “risk” of being caught. A girl, any person for that matter, is not to be leered at. That’s just bad manners. I wouldn’t presume to indulge myself at your expense… But fuck’s sake… They are right there, and I’d like a moment to take them in.
Indeed, this perspective of not caring about the risk has, in some occasions, entirely reversed. Instead of feeling averse to the risk, I feel justly deserving of the glance. Again, showing all respect, these moments would be brief and polite:
Looking into her eyes, “So Sophia, let me see if I understand you?” Lean back, exposing bit of skin above my pant line. “You were saying that you think there is an over-indulgence in the populist movement on the part of the new media?” Gently lower eyes, take in breasts, resume eye contact.
She, in response, tilts head to think, and accentuate neck, “Yes, Thomas, but I’m wondering about the media itself. What is its real role in the populist movement, and is it just a manifestation of the movement itself?” Brushes hair aside discreetly, in case my first glance was obscured. “What do you think?” Glances at my waist to check for notorious “arrow” just above hip bone which indicates male virility.
There, wasn’t that nice? In this example, we have two adults enjoying a stimulating discussion on social politics. Both parties are engaged in what the other is saying, and both parties subtly acknowledge that one is a male and one is a female and that each has certain needs to fully appreciate the other. The key here is that they are both very adult about the situation. The woman trusts the man to enjoy a respectful glance while continuing his investment in her intellect. The man, having taken the glance, moves on to more intimate feature of character and values.
I know. It won’t work. At least not as any standard that will be accepted as the norm, but it is an ideal. Actually my true ideal is a little more straightforward: Just let me see them. Shy? Fine, send me a photo. I’m not talking everyone I meet here, just the few girls I’m having regular conversations with and with whom I’m developing real relationships. I’m speaking to the co-workers, the friends and, in some ways, even their friends who are always joining us on our nights out.
Why keep men guessing? Just let us be done with it already. Half the reason we’re staring at the damn things is because of the mystery. You don’t see this problem in the western provinces of Kenya. I know women love being mysterious and all, but it’s exhausting for us and, frankly, not very sincere on the girl’s part. Now, I would never suggest that all women walk around topless, all the time. Of course not; let’s not be ridiculous. Everyone deserves their privacy.
What I’m suggesting here is a little gift that comes in the relationship: A new custom. After a few months of knowing you, of working closely or hanging out, let’s see them. In some form or another, let’s take a look. (And so help me if you girls do that thing where you’re “flashing” me but it’s just you pulling your shirts up, only to reveal a perfectly in-tact bra that wholly covers my hopes and dreams. That’s not “flashing,” that’s just mean-spirited bullshit.) Imagine the freedom everyone would have. I could get back to the point in the conversation where you said something and I paid attention. I don’t want to have to go here but, “Camon, baby! I’d respect you more, not less.” Of course I’d never go that far. Such pleading wouldn’t befit the character I’m purporting deserves such a gift.
I get that there are assholes out there who don’t deserve this. But there are a lot of us who do. There are a lot of decent, hardworking, considerate guys, who just want to move on from their need to stare at your chest and really get to know the inner-you.
Let’s think about this reasonably. If you had a friend over for lunch, and he was all distracted because he hadn’t eaten, blood sugar has tanked and endocrine system all out of whack, wouldn’t you offer to make him a sandwich? Of course you would. So, please, consider that the next time we chat, if I haven’t seen your breasts, I’m probably wondering about them. I’m probably curious. It’s probably a bit distracting, and maybe we should just get them out of the way.
(It’s important, at this stage of our relationship, ie, reader/writer, that you recognize the obvious embellishment and satire of that last suggestion, in fact, in a helluva lot of this piece. Of course I’m not serious about anyone owing me anything. Of course this is exaggeration for effect. But, of course, you may still think me a prick/dick/asshole/misogynist or just plain unfunny. No man in their right mind actually feels that a woman owes him anything regarding her own body. Including me.)
Back to my original question: What do women think of all of this? Obviously, you’re aware of most of it. Maybe you agree with me, can’t wait to take your top off, and are just feeling too burdened by social constraints that tell you it’s not the proper way for a young lady to behave. Do I think anything will come of this in the form of (my god, the perfect, life-giving, ever-pleasing) breasts? No, not really, but, as I said, I’d like to hear what you feel. I think your feelings are really important, and we should discuss them over lunch. (Please note obvious sarcasm)
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{ 45 comments… read them below or add one }
i love that photo!
xox
ava
Huhuhu… boobies…
Sorry, you were saying?
I was wondering what women thought about this. What’s it like for them growing up with this, and do they have an appreciation for the male perspective (so to speak)?
I’m a woman with two of those! Perhaps I can answer.
The short answer is, it’s not at all pleasant.
Imagine being a girl, maybe about twelve. One day, these things start growing on your chest. You’re pretty happy, because that’s what TV and the magazines and your peers tell you to want, right? The bigger the better. (Or maybe you’re uncomfortable, because you don’t want all your school friends to make fun of you if they get too big, and anyway, you’ve got a 16-year-old sister. You see how all those boys and men look at her. They almost let the saliva drip down her shirt. How can she let them do that to her? (Oh, sweetheart, you do not yet know.))
So, your developing sexuality is getting interfered with because all these weird men, much older than you, are suddenly seeing you as sexually available. And now it’s boys your age, too. At school, on the bus, the kid across the street. Because those older men, the media, the whole of patriarchal society is whispering to those boys that women are not as good, not like us, and you can stare at their breasts all you like. But you’re just trying to head to the movies with your friends, or pick up some bread and milk. Just going about your life. It doesn’t make much of a difference if you cover up, because they’re still there, like flashing lights drawing people to your chest. You begin to feel a bit dehumanised.
Later, you’ve grown up a bit. You’re at a party in high school, and it’s all very exciting. There’s this guy you kind of like. So eventually your paths collide and you say, ‘hi, how’re you?’ And he glances briefly at your face, then his eyes are drawn, seemingly inexorably, to your breasts. Well, at least he thinks I’m hot, you think. And you try asking him about a mutual friend, and a class you share, but he’s giving you monosyllabic answers. And at first you think, all right, teenage hormones. It’s just biology. But surely this dude could tear his eyes away… but no. Eventually you scurry off, humiliated. But shouldn’t you like the attention? And what did you expect for going out in public, especially in a low-cut top? You come to realize: no matter what you wear, or how you behave – all the things we’re told good girls can do to protect themselves – some dude will always think it’s okay. And it’s not just biology, you can’t separate that from social conditioning. (And over the years, you see guys justifying their behaviour as a biological imperative, but you know it’s just an excuse. They could stop if they wanted to. But they don’t respect you enough to stop.)
And in your twenties, you’re in a meeting. You’ve got some financial matters to discuss, but you’re not getting far because the man you need to help you is instead trying to get an angle down your shirt. So are you going to object and make this hard for yourself? Or do you let yourself be this man’s sex object for a while in the hopes of getting a successful outcome for your meeting? Another day. Another chip off your pride and self-esteem and sense of personhood.
And in your thirties, you have a kid. You decide to breastfeed. You get a bunch of new men who like to look at your breasts, sometimes a little slack-jawed, because they’ve gotten bigger with milk. You just can’t win. Sometimes, when your baby starts crying and your breasts are just aching with all the milk, you’ve got to feed your baby right then and there. So you sit and take your breast out and your baby latches on. But now – ewwwwww. People tell you that’s disgusting. You’re not a cow, you’re a woman. Can’t you hide that under a blanket? Because people are startled to see a breast fulfill its biological function. People are used to thinking of breasts as sexy. But yours work hard to feed your baby, and you’re proud of them, and why can’t people just shut up and let you feed your kid? At least everyone is turning away from your breasts, for once.
And in your forties, the kid has been weaned, and now your breasts are saggy. The world is bombarding you with the message that your saggy breasts are disgusting. Kind of an object of fascination. But that doesn’t stop men, men, yet more men, trying to look down your shirt.
You can never win. And the years go on…
All these men, ogling your poor breasts over the years. They just sort of glaze over while looking at your breasts. It’s clear that if they were thinking about you as a person in that moment, just like them, with regular wants and worries, they would not look at your breasts like that. You grow intimately acquainted with their perspective. These guys think that staring at your breasts is their due. They’re nice guys, they think to themselves, where’s the harm in looking? Someone who thinks that? Is not a nice guy.
In this scenario, I’ve given you the life of a white, heterosexual, middle-class, able, thin, cis woman. You probably didn’t pick up on most of those things, but you may if you go back and have another read. (Nobody was saying that you, as a disabled woman, shouldn’t have children or saw you as unsexual or took advantage of your disability and tried to assault you. Nobody said that your breasts were the only good thing about your fat body. Just a couple of examples.) So imagine how complicated having one’s breasts stared at can get when you’re dealing with multiple oppressions. And on top of all that, imagine constantly factoring the possibility of men staring at your breasts when you’re planning what to wear today, or when you sit down in a low-cut top, or when you’re in a situation in which you want to be taken seriously. You might look at a woman’s breasts for a few seconds. She’s got to put up with the same thing for decades.
I suppose you’re wondering why a lot of women don’t generally speak up. Women are taught to be submissive, subsume our own needs to get others’ met. Yes, even in this day and age. That kind of training lingers on. We’re taught not to rock the boat, because people will think we’re nasty bitches. So we put up with it – maybe he’ll stop soon, maybe he’ll look at my face, how can he do that while he’s talking to me? And it feels awful. To this day, I’ve never told a man to move his eyes to my face, because I’m frozen with shock, after all this time, that someone out there really thinks it’s acceptable to ogle my breasts; also because I do not want to make the situation awkward.
Because when women do speak up about ogling? Sometimes the dude looks embarrassed, apologises and turns away. But often, the situation just gets awkward. So maybe the guy goes away – if he doesn’t snatch a few more seconds to look (oh wow, does he think I can’t see what he’s doing?). But then your friend might say, ‘gee, that was a bit harsh. Him looking wasn’t doing any harm.’ And you’re just that bitch who had to go make things all weird. But this gaze does do harm. You cannot separate the breasts from the person who has them. (I would refer you to Karen Healey’s poem More About Them.)
So, what is a woman to do? There’ll always be some other guy who thinks it’s okay.
Breasts are wonderful things. There’s something more important than that though. At the end of the day, they are a part of a living person. Your respect for the women around you ought to govern your next move.
(Also, I just dug your comment out of the spam filter at my blog, if you want to head over.)
It’s a helluva thoughtful comment. Just about made me want to run for cover (ie, turn on entirely non-breast-related documentary about financial woes, and such, seeming very intellectual and not at all the sort concerned with breasts except where the highest possible respects are paid).
I’d still like to leave this post open for comments though, a few more opinions. I totally appreciate (as much, I’d hope, as any man can, especially given that he is of the class of “breast ogglers”) what a difficulty it must be for women to negotiate through society amidst so much objectification. Indeed, your point is that it is not even that women are objectified, because this guy, staring at your chest, doesn’t even see you as a person.
Still, I’d like to think that it’s not entirely a bleak situation. I’m confident that respect for a woman and apprecation for her breasts can coexist. I’ve had pleanty of woman colleagues, friends, girlfriens, etc, whose opinions and experience I’ve held in the highest regard, while also completely appreciating what’s going on in that central region below the neck.
The question I have, then, is, “why does my looking so offend?” It just seems perfectly reasonable that I might look. I look at all sorts of things: I look at her face, her legs, her but, hips, thighs, arms, hands. As I said, I happen to particularly notice breasts, but they are still part of a composite. And this seems utterly naturaly to me. I can only assume that people are also looking at me, color of my smile, shape of ass, projection of nose. And some of them are probably objectifying for a bit. “My god, such a face! I wish he’d shut up aleady! Surprised that mouth was able to form at all what with the nose blocking out all the sunshine.”
Let’s take a friend of mine, Tara, for example. Now here’s a girl I use as a fairly objective example of a helluva great female and person in general. She’s intelligent, quick-witted, charming, hard-working, sophisticated and loads of fun at a party. I’d trust her with my taxes, my personal problems, my last will and testament if it ever came to it. She also happens to have an amazing rack (“rack” used with utmost respect). And she’s a dear friend. And it’s not that I steal my glance at every occasion, but that, yes, there are times when such is my pleasure to look her over. She is, after all, beautiful. And I have lots of friends like this, most of whom I’d wager would not be offended if I told them they were attractive, nor surprised to find that that meant they’d occassionally get a visit from my general gaze.
At the end of it, I really can’t imagine what it must be like, especially growing up, for a girl to suddenly have these things that get them so much, so varied, and so often negative or, at least, unwanted attention. But ‘objectification,’ if that’s what we are worried about, is such an ugly term, one I don’t believe aptly covers the broad spectrum of the breast vantage. The trouble with this is believing that respect for another human is necessarily exclusive from appreciating their beauty (whatever form that takes). Sexuality, and its feature of appreciating breasts, doesn’t necessitate loss of compassion for that person. Sure, there are going to be times when it’s done wrong, when the gentleman in question is anything but, and that’s too damn bad, because it’s ruining it for the rest of us who can function perfectly well in an environment where a woman wears what pleases her and we, men, compose ourselves gracefully.
I’ll ask a few friends to comment because if, after all this, I’m dead wrong, and really, I’m negatively contributing to the submissive socializing of our young girls, I may endeavor to rid myself of such opinions and wants. I certainly hope I’m right though; I really do love the occasional glance.
Thanks!
The problem is not so much noticing breasts in itself as it is the overlay of oppression and what breasts signify in this society. Sure, it’d be nice to live in a post-patriarchal world where women’s bodies aren’t treated like junk. Right here, right now, you’ve got to examine what your staring at women’s breasts means to us. I love breasts too, and I treat them with respect by not making people uncomfortable and staring at them and analysing them. More importantly, I’m respecting the people who have them. (Of course, my staring at them has a totally different social force to yours, because you are in a position of power.)
But seriously, mate? If you’re focussing on women’s breasts as much as you seem to be from your post and your comment, you’re contributing to the negative socialisation of girls and women. You can appreciate breasts and women simultaneously all you want in your own head, but the woman you’re staring at is dealing with you as yet another guy ogling her. It’s not just your intent that impacts on us. Compassion requires realising what these kind of behaviours can do to the person on the other side.
Seeing as you of course can’t really appreciate what it’s like to live with this day in, day out, I’ll just say that you’ve just got to accept that this is what life is life for us, and the best thing you can do as a decent human being – and you seem like you’re trying here – is to ease a bit of the burden by not focussing on our bodies, but the great person in front of you.
I’d second what Chally says about doing the compassionate thing. Whether you feel you’re being oggled or just looked at depends on the relationship you have with the person. I wouldn’t be offended if a close friend looked at me in that way, but in the street, in the office, at a shop, it’s just not on. I think you know that really, deep down.
“The question I have, then, is, “why does my looking so offend?”” Because you feel you have a right to look, when indeed, you do not. Even if I were to agree you had a NEED, which I do not, I would strenuously disagree you had a right.
You may not feel you’re expressing a right, but this:
“Actually my true ideal is a little more straightforward: Just let me see them. Shy? Fine, send me a photo. I’m not talking everyone I meet here, just the few girls I’m having regular conversations with and with whom I’m developing real relationships. I’m speaking to the co-workers, the friends and, in some ways, even their friends who are always joining us on our nights out.”
And, well, pretty much the whole rest of your post is pure entitlement. You compare your “need” to see my breasts with the need for a hypoglycemic for food. You don’t see how that’s a problem?
You’re also placing the burden of ensuring respectful conversation directly on the woman, and her allowing you use (through sight) of HER body. Dude, it really shouldn’t be up to ME to make sure YOU don’t act like an ass when we’re talking. (Staring at my breasts? Because you’re so obsessed with them you can’t move on in the conversation? That’s acting like an ass.) You don’t see the problem with that?
I actually greatly prefer wearing shirts that show my chest (with or without cleavage), and of course I expect that said chest is going to be glanced at the same as one would glance at my shoulder, my hip, my neck, my armpit hair: as part of taking in the package deal that is “me” (or at least my body). And I am a notorious enough flirt that in the right context, once I’ve offered someone permission with my own attitude, I don’t necessarily mind a little good-natured ogling. But you? You wouldn’t get that. Because I, as a woman, as someone who’s had these parts of my body for the last two decades, can instantly tell when a guy cares too damn much. And that’s just creepy.
You respect women? Get over this. They’re just breasts. And they’re not yours.
I think I’m going to still hold out for a few more comments (admitedly, until I get more of the answer I am looking for;).
I’ll say this much though, that last bit in my post, was definatley the ‘half-serious’ I was talking about, written more for the entertainment of taking a point to an extreme rather than as a serious contention. Having said that, however, I wont try to back down on what I’ve written; it wouldn’t be fair to your intelligent comments.
I don’t think, even in the extreme, that I am suggesting a “right” to the breasts. A ‘right’ is something which is protected, stood up for by other people, and I can’t imagine, even in some hypothetical world, wanting any one sex to be in such a position of power that they expect another person to be so objectified.
A quick note to the point of how ‘focused’ I am given this post and the comments: I have stayed focused on the topic, and breasts sure are an interesting one to me. I sat around with an old male friend and my girlfriend last night reading all of your comments. I asked if I was way off base. My friend and I then shared stories of growing up, and how it seems for all little boys that breasts are among the most fascinating things out there.
Meanwhile, I still think it’s possible to appreciate a feature of a woman’s body and simultaneously appreciate her humanity.
As for having some girl in a shop or platonic co-worker just show me them: ahh well, I admit, in some perfect world…but of course this is not what I’m seriously suggesting.
But I think it’s best to leave my reply in the hands of my girlfriends who assure me that my intentions, and result, have been both noble and appreciated. I’ve requested, and shall await their comments.
Mmm. See, when you say that “A ‘right’ is something which is protected, stood up for by other people,” and put that in alongside honestly declaring you’re not going to change your mind, so you’re just going to wait until someone makes a comment that backs you up? You just declared your ogling of breasts to be a right. Which, you know what? They’re not *yours*, and they’re not *objects*. They are me. And when you turn them into objects, you turn me into an object. Which, in case it hasn’t been made clear yet, is just not fucking on.
I’ve been ogled for a long time. I had a guy once stop directly in front of me in the street and make a guttural noise at my chest. It had the effect, when I was younger (thankfully I’ve met some actually nice people, male and female, who don’t believe they have a right to objectify me), of making me feel like my sexuality was not my own. It made me feel like I was only ever able to be sexual when someone turned me into an object, that what I wanted mattered not at all (which is clear, given that what I wanted was an appreciation of *all* of who I was and what I wanted, and what I got was being turned someone whose desires (even about how someone else *interacted* with me) mattered so little they were simply being ignored in order to make me an object of someone else’s desire). When I was made Not Me, made into just T&A. That’s what you do to women, dude. I have found my own ways to deal with this, to find ways that I don’t feel disconnected from myself and my desires when some dick ogles me, but why, exactly, ought I have to do this work? Shouldn’t I be able to be in the world, entitled to my own desires, without having to *work* for them? And I’m not even going to touch on the fucking insulting bullshit of the ‘gift’ carryon. Check the feminist blogosphere for the definition of a Nice Guy (TM) and a discussion of the misogyny implicit in it, because your ‘humour’ just put you squarely in their camp.
Your friend Tara might value your friendship sufficiently that she won’t call you out, or she might have done the hard work of not letting other people’s objectification of her affect her, or she might feel like it’s ‘impolite’ to point out that you’re being a douche when you do it (this is how women are socialised, after all); none of her not commenting on your ogling means that she is unaware or even okay with it.
And it’s nice that your girlfriends think that your intentions matter. Unfortunately, they don’t get to decide what other women think about your ogling, and indeed, other women, strangers, with whom you have no relationship, well, part of the *point* of your ogling them is that you don’t know them. That they really are just reduced to objects. And so how would they know or care or be affected by your intention? When you claim that your intention matters more than someone else’s experience of your action, you’re asserting that *your* experience of the situation matters more than theirs. I think you need to ask yourself why, exactly, you think that your desires and rights and intentions matter more than the women and girls whose experience of themselves is so negatively influenced by them. In the end: you want to think ogling is harmless, and when you’re told it’s not, you’re effectively just *insisting* that it’s harmless: that your experience matters more than women’s. That’s why pretty much your whole argument has begun and ended with rampant sexism. Check your fucking privilege!
This turned into a post for me too – my experience makes my reaction to boob watching more like your girlfriend’s, however, it doesn’t invalidate what Chally says. Lots of women feel exactly like Chally’s description, so unless you know a woman well enough to be absolutely certain that they have been lucky enough to grow up without equating ogling with oppression and even latent threats of violence, no level of fascination justifies invoking the kind of responses Chally describes.
OK, I find this very interesting, but probably not the way you intended it to be.
You see, it is only in Western Society that breasts are sexualised and admired this way. In other cultures they are seen as something that women have to feed babies with. Even in quite modest societies breast are not objects of titilation, for example, in Middle Eastern cultures it is still technically illegal for a woman to bare her midriff (the classic Belly Dance costume is a Hollywood invention, not in any way a traditional costume of such cultures at all) but, it is perfectly acceptable to bare a breast to feed a baby. See here; http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_del5YU8vcO4/RrPW1yv9-NI/AAAAAAAAADU/MNhqbEuOfpE/s320/breastfeeding.jpg Double standards? May be not! It is only in recent times now that Western values are being adopted by Eastern cultures that this is seen as taboo.
But here, in the US and UK (and to some degree Europe too) we are bombarded by subliminal messages that tell us breasts are beautiful objects of lust. We use them to sell cars, newspapers, anything we can think of basically. But we rarely see them being used for their original biological purpose, feeding a baby. Instead we see babies being given bottles, the baby bottle has become a universal symbol for Baby, (I’m not going to go into the rights and wrongs of this here and now). I have even seen a baby bottle symbol on the door of a Breastfeeding Room in a shopping mall!!!
So in actual fact your fascination is quite understandable, you have grown up in a world that has taught you that boobs are for you and your pleasure, if you had grown up in Africa http://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/9915/wm/pd378416.jpg or South America http://beconfused.com/images/2005/02/A-mother-breast-feeding-her-kid.jpg then you would probably feel quite different!
I hope you feel as much awe when you see your girlfriend/wife nursing your baby one day, then you will see how truely wonderful, marvelous and magic boobs really are!!
You are not seeing the problem because you are the problem. As you put it, you are holding out for an answer you are looking for. Basically, you want us women to tell you it’s ok, look all you want. You balance multiple thoughtful responses to your post against the word of your girlfriend–a woman who is definitely biased in your favor, but she is saying what you want to hear and helping you to justify continuing on with ‘business as usual’. Why did you even bother to post? Did you think the women of the world would write in and say “Oh thanks, I get it, when you ogle it’s respectful, yes, ok, we can make an exception for you, keep on then”. I have seen this alot lately. Because you’ve undergone a modicum of self-examination your looking is supposed to be different from people who just, you know, look. That’s bull. Actions speak louder than words. If you want to be respectful, don’t look, it’s that easy.
Sophist, I do think it’s possible to appreciate a feature of any person’s body and appreciate the humanity of that person. That’s one of the awesome pleasures of respectful, mutually enthusiastic sex: you have the permission of your partner to enjoy their body as an extension of his or her “self” (where self is a slippery word I’m using to indicate the center of a human being’s desires, anxieties, needs, pleasures, etc.). If I didn’t believe in that, I really would just give up.
I’m also going to believe that you do have good intentions, so here are a few more thoughts and questions for you, all focusing on your most recent comment, since that’s where you are right now in your process of understanding.
-You start that comment with a little half-disclaimer about humor: you didn’t really mean it, you were being extreme for entertainment purposes. At risk of sounding all humorless-feminist, I have to suggest that you avoid that kind of disclaimer in the future. The thing about humor is this: it relies on socially agreed-on meaning in order to convey humor from speaker to audience. That means two things: If I don’t agree with some of your precepts (that, for example, objectification is a matter of levity), I’m just not going to find you funny. Also, you can’t ever back out of a “humorous” statement by suggesting it wasn’t really meant. Why not instead ask yourself why you chose to “entertain” in that way? Ask yourself (in the spirit of Arwyn’s very good questions about entitlement) what kind of dynamic you create as a hetersexual man making light of objectification?
-You’re very quick to defend yourself against that claim of entitlement. Why not, as an intellectual exercise perhaps, drop the defense and try on that thought more seriously. (Not to compare oppressions, but this entitlement-inspection is something I have to do regularly as a white person who writes academically about race.) Don’t be literal; the “right” to objectify isn’t written in law (except when it is, such as in court cases where female rape accusers are vilified for the clothes that they wear and the bodies that they dare to show in public). Think about other ways society encourages men to objectify, nudges them toward feeling that some amount of proprietary attitude toward the female body is “natural.” Chally gave you a lot of good examples. But think about yourself – you’re swimming in the same Kool-Aid as the rest of us, you are not unstained.
-Along those same lines, be critical of your childhood fascination with breasts. The way you present it (“all” the boys felt this way, and at a young age) makes it sound that this was just something that happened to you, you couldn’t control it. Do you really believe that? You don’t recall ever having older men model this behavior for you; you don’t recall you or your peers ever expressing uncertainty about why breasts were supposed to be important? We do have some language for the ways men differ in desire; we admit that there are breast men and leg men, we concede that some men prefer larger breasts and some smaller. Some men grow up to prefer male sex partners, and these men also have varied opinions about breasts. If we allow these differences, why not just allow that men are not wired for certain desires – and that they are, in part, socially encouraged to develop them?
If you can tease apart some of the ways you and other young men are socially conditioned, then you can do a couple of things that you seem to be interested in doing: you can let go of some of your entitlement (once you admit that you’ve been acting with some), and you might also be able to separate acts of objectification (“I’m just staring at your tits because I can and want to”) and admiration.
Final note: As good and as innocent as we all would like to believe ourselves to be, we can’t always separate ourselves from the history of oppression that preceded us. Not fair but true. As much as you yourself may be goodwilled toward breasts, if you ogle a woman on the street (or at work, god forbid) you do not stand apart from a stream of ogling men that day or week or lifetime. To the woman who sees you seeing her in terms of her body, you appear to be one more man who looks at her as a mobile titillation toy set. And that will probably make her feel like shit, as Chally wrote. Just so you know.
Many thoughtful comments and, as the weekend will do with houseguests and social obligations, I have not been able to sit and properly digest them, except to see that they are deserving of my full attention. Having read through them quickly, however, I have taken one point from that I thought I would address.
Let me ask, is there a type of looking at someone, that’s respectful? What’s that called? I know that this is going to open up all kinds of quick responses that whatever I said, there’s no going back from it, but, as adults, I’m curious, again, to find out the balance of these thoughts (why I asked for everyone’s opinion in the first place) and I’d really like to understand, then, what it is to see someone respectfully.
Donna wrote, “if you want to be respectful, don’t look. It’s that easy.” I get her point. Because of her point, I’d like to change an element of the argument, if I may. Can we get rid of the word “oggling?” If I ever used this at any point in my own responses, it was a mistake, because – and I hope this is obvious – it is exactly not the reference I am intending in my quest to describe a healthy relationship with breast appreciation.
I’ll put more on this later (again, apologies, but friend in town). Meanwhile, let’s stand by those two things. Firstly, that the word “oggling,” exactly describes what I’m not hoping to achieve. Secondly, since people look at people in at least the most basic sense of, my god, just plain looking- and I would argue quite rightfully so – there must be those who are able to notice people, their features, and take pleasure in those features in a respectful way.
I would like to assume that the women who have so thoughtfully posted here have, at some point, noticed an attractive man and, so to speak, drank him in with their look. The women I have been discussing this with of late have all said two things: that men seem to be more visual creatures but that they have, they admit, certainly had their moments of appreciating the (what’s the term here?) ‘rougher’ sex?
Oh, one quick other thing, because this one really got me. As to the question Donna made about “why did you even post this.” Suffice it to say that, creatively speaking, I find it healthier to write my ideas out an explore the topics then, well, not. It’s always been my opinion that open, thoughtful discussion of a topic is generally the best way to understand people. I believe her point was more along the lines of, “your answer is wrong, why post when you dep down know this.” As the greek philosophers believed that no rational man could find themselves choosing the ‘bad’ over the ‘good,’ so I’ll admit to the readers that as I claim no certainty, I am generally confident that my thoughts and ideas are not utterly assinine and, if so, are at least intelligent enough in style to deserve discussion (it is my website, after all, and I find that this is a prerequisite for being someone anyone would care to read).
Just about made me want to run for cover
That unfamiliar feeling might be you realising you might be wrong.
Probably ought to get back to that “sit and properly digest” plan, because several commenters have repeated this point: even if you do not think of what you do as ogling, that doesn’t mean that the targeted women agree. This can’t be said enough: progress does not emerge from privileged classes (in this case, “heterosexual men”) setting the terms of the discussion (“can we not call what I do ‘ogling’?”). That’s what entitlement means – that by accident you’ve been born into a group of people who have been setting the terms of certain discussions for centuries.
But I think you’re now being disingenuous by equating your looking with seeing, and separating that from this word “ogling”. Obviously everyone with vision can see. But all of the words and phrases you chose to open the original post are chosen to evoke fixated seeing: staring, committed glances, looks that you know you have to find a way to get away with. Ogling is precisely the right word to describe this kind of looking, and it is that kind of targeted gaze that a lot of female commentors are responding to. So I think you kind of know the difference between respectful looking and ogling already, yes?
Another note. Myself I do not think that men are intrinsically more visual creatures than women, although I do think they are conditioned to behave that way. Lots of women enjoy looking; however, they have less encouragement to think of men as attractive bodies, and even less encouragement to fetishize certain parts of the male body, and even less encouragement to think of men as bodies instead of bodies-with-minds. (That doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. I used to tell myself to think this way, as a kind of self-defense against the abuse I was used to receiving, but I grew out of it.)
I would take a punt that you can’t get a uniform answer to this question:
Let me ask, is there a type of looking at someone, that’s respectful? What’s that called?
I have a pretty good idea about what my answer is, in fact I was thinking about writing a followup post to the last one titled something along the lines of “Ariane’s guide to breast appreciation”. The problem is, that it completely only applies to me. I don’t agree with other commenters that the women who have agreed with you are being necessarily disingenuous or deluded (although room must be made for that possibility). I would say that there are women who don’t mind you having a bit of a look-see if they wearing clothes that put the girls right out there, but on the other hand, there are women who really DO mind you having a bit of look-see when they are wearing clothes that put the girls right out there.
So I suspect that the answer is that anything past “seeing” is going to be unacceptable for some women. For other women, anything right up to pulling silly faces at the moment of meeting is ok – as long as it doesn’t carry on past it. I realise that you’ve moved your position and your argument on from your original post, but the line about not being about to concentrate on what I’m saying until you’ve seen my boobs? Can’t imagine there’s many more than a handful of women who genuinely think that’s acceptable. That really is saying that my boobs are more important than anything else I can say or do, and that is objectification regardless of life experience.
Tanglethis commented that it isn’t fair that you are affected by the oppression that preceded you, and that’s true. We all get thrown into the society we land in, and it isn’t fair that women are made to feel like Chally’s description. It also isn’t fair that your well intentioned looking can cause a cascade of negative emotions in some women. My focus in educating myself about this kind of thing is how to change the world, how to make it that my daughter doesn’t feel that way, and how to help my sons understand the unfortunate history that precedes them. I want my sons to recognise that while they didn’t create the problem, if they want to be respectful of the women they come into contact with, they need to understand the problem and modify their behaviour accordingly.
So from where you stand, it seems to me that you asked because you know people for whom it isn’t a big deal, and you’re trying to reconcile that with the kind of responses you’ve seen here. Regrettably, the answer is that if you want to respect the women who have been made to feel threatened and diminished by the actions of other men in their lives, you really can’t look, appreciate or anything else. If the woman is a stranger, just don’t do it. If you know them well enough, it’s a different story, but it’s worth listening to what people have said here about some women’s reluctance to tell you something you don’t want to hear.
As a last note (which may or may not have any relevance to you), I personally have a problem with the word privilege. This isn’t an attack on the world who use it, it’s just that it triggers massive defensiveness in me – it feels like an accusation, whether or not it was intended that way. The result is that I defend my privilege instead of acknowledging it. So I’ve started mentally translating it into something like “luck that I’ve never had to deal with *that* shit”. For starters it reminds me that it doesn’t mean I’ve never had to deal with *any* shit. And it also means I’m not responsible for my privilege, only for my reaction to it.
I don’t think you have to worry or apologise about having a friend in town or having a busy weekend, we’ve all been there!
‘Let me ask, is there a type of looking at someone, that’s respectful? What’s that called?’ Arwyn, for instance, answered that, and hers was in the round of comments you already read properly. And you just answered that yourself: ‘just plain looking’ – you just notice people as Arwyn described, and then you look away. I myself have answered it multiple times. Lalaroo at my place made it quite explicit for you. And Magnetic Crow. And a lot of other people. That you don’t think you’ve gotten an answer is because you haven’t gotten one you like. If you honestly get Donna’s point, then you’ll not be looking, and you’ll be appreciating breasts by leaving them alone, and then your question is moot, anyway.
Also, I kind of resent your implication that anyone here has made a ‘quick response’. A group of people have taken time out to address your concerns from many angles, which is definitely more than a screed that so dehumanises us deserves. If you’ve changed your mind about some things, fine, I’m glad you’re thinking. But this stage you’re not just acting entitled towards our breasts, but towards our words, framing them so you’ll be comfortable and not have to examine how wrong you’ve gone, and demanding ever more from us. This isn’t an open, thoughtful discussion on your part. I’ll come back to that.
As you’re clearly not describing a healthy experience with “breast appreciation,” no, we can’t get rid of the word ogling. It describes my experience, and a lot of other people have used it and it is definitely applicable to what you’re talking about. Trying to get rid of it to soften what you’re doing here, or insisting, again, that your behaviour is somehow different to every other ogler in the world, is just disingenuous. As for actual appreciation of breasts, it has been discussed.
Well, speaking as one of the heterosexual women here, Thomas, yeah, I’ve noticed men. And I have answered this question before at my place: the layer of misogyny makes the difference, and I cannot affect you with my gaze as you can affect me. Also, I’m just not rude enough to gawk at men I find attractive. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand. As for men being visual and the rougher sex – I doubt a whole heap of the commenters here are gender essentialists.
If you honestly respect the intelligence of the commenters, can you stop asking us to repeat ourselves, for one thing? And for another, it is not our responsibility to educate you in these matters. The people here have been kind enough to help you out, and you’re just taking advantage now.
If you’ve moved to saying that it’s wrong to see a woman as a pair of breasts… and then it’s wrong to ogle her… and we’ve answered all your other concerns… and you keep switching the game on us…. Well, then, I think you’re grasping at straws at this stage, just trying to hold on to any idea of what you’ve written as respectful or even nice. And that’s not an intelligent discussion at all. In any case, have respect for what you’re being told, all these perspectives and awful, heartfelt experiences. Dude, maybe you need to contemplate for a while.
Also, Ariane: ‘I don’t agree with other commenters that the women who have agreed with you are being necessarily disingenuous or deluded (although room must be made for that possibility).’ I can’t see that anybody has said that.
Chally: Not everyone, but there was a suggestion of it:
You balance multiple thoughtful responses to your post against the word of your girlfriend–a woman who is definitely biased in your favor, but she is saying what you want to hear and helping you to justify continuing on with ‘business as usual’. from Donna.
Your friend Tara might value your friendship sufficiently that she won’t call you out, or she might have done the hard work of not letting other people’s objectification of her affect her, or she might feel like it’s ‘impolite’ to point out that you’re being a douche when you do it (this is how women are socialised, after all); none of her not commenting on your ogling means that she is unaware or even okay with it. from WP (of course she has used “might”, so she hasn’t said necessarily either, but there is a strong implication that it is unlikely she is just ok with it, especially coming after Donna’s assertion).
Ariane: Oh, okay. You see, I think that they’re talking about Thomas’ girlfriend being allied with him and having made the decision to deal with all this in that particular way. Maybe it’s just a question of defining words, but ‘disingenuous or deluded’ implies to me cluelessness, lack of thought and insincerity without justification. And I can’t see that Donna and WP were speaking badly of those women. ‘Disingenuous or deluded’ seems to mean something different to you, unless there’s a level to those two comments I’m not picking up on. But, definitely, those comments imply that Thomas’ girlfriend is probably not okay with ogling. Of course, Donna and WP can tell you what they meant better than I can!
Please excuse the derail, Thomas. Carry on!
Whoops, and Tara, I meant.
No energy this evening to give too thoughtful a response, as is deserved, by your comments, individually, except to say that I am reading them and thinking and eager to respond when I’ve bit more time at my disposal.
I will briefly address what I heard from Chally on a couple of points. I hadn’t intended the phrase ‘quick response’ to indicate I felt any responses were thoughtless, only that in asking a question which so obviously attempted to begin the discussion at a simpler level of, say, ‘Let’s talk about how people look at each other,’ I risked people wanting to say something akin to, ‘hey, but you already said all of this other stuff, you can’t go back now.’ You will have to pardon my style of discussion as it is, admittedly, tedious and over burdened. It was the practice of my educators, and one I have long adopted, to often request that whatever words were being used ( in this case, ‘ogle’) often were sometimes examined, rigorously defined or, as I suggested, removed entirely, so as to avoid any miscommunication; just as a way to flush out the language and really force an understanding of what we were all meaning to say. (Poor example, but if everyone were using the term ‘love,’ I might suggest we stop using that word, and instead substitute it with our individual descriptions, feelings about the subject, so that we’d have better opportunity to understand each other’s perspectives, in case ‘love’ means something very different for me than it does you, thereby avoiding the pitfall of cliché.)
Which brings me to the second bit. The issue of this not being a forum to educate me or, rather, it not being the commentator’s responsibility, that’s fair. Point of fact, this is a forum for me to self-publish my writing, and which endeavors to be stimulating enough to evoke thoughtful response (that bit is fairly accomplished so far, meaning, you all have something to say). In my mind, I try to imagine us all sitting round a classroom (though I think a pub or something might be more congenial so that we might all cheers afterward to a discussion well done), putting points back and forth. To this end, it seems only natural to me that I might ask questions, even ones which, I guess, don’t seem to take into consideration what you believe is already well put. That’s a fair criticism. As I said before, I generally take the route of asking questions (sometimes ad-nausium), and the truth is that I’m trying to suss out where people are coming from, what certain words mean to them, all that, and sometimes try to start all over again to find some common ground upon which to build an understanding. Asking a question like ‘what is a respectful way to look’ or another about something to do with how women look at men, is my way of trying to understand the recent commenter’s perspectives on what they find attractive and elements in others that they focus on. For example, I think it prudent and not at all asinine to agree that all these thoughtful people have been attracted to others, especially on a physical level, and to discuss what form that takes to see similarities and dissimilarities. Even at this point, I’m not looking for a way to make what I’ve said right, but just to see where we, at first, agree.
I’ve taken a very casual style to my views for this particular piece, one written in a voice I would use with friends, loved ones, and in a comfortable setting, and the seriousness of the replies has illustrated that my little writer’s world is not so safe and intimate, instead demanding quite a lot of explanation and accountability. So, if I and my words are to be made accountable, this is the best way I know how, ask questions, dumb, irritating, even patronizing as they may seem. As for being among the ‘privileged class’ and change not coming from my direction: I respect the intelligence of this idea. If I were to take that to mean that I can’t lead a discussion by taking things a different way, well, I’m a talker, and a discusser, and I’m not sure I’d know what to do so I’d like to keep asking such questions.
I suppose what it comes to for me is that I’ve always enjoyed the process of discussion and argumentation. In fact, the word ‘argument’ does not necessarily have a negative connotation to me. To argue, for me, is to courteously put points back and forth in contrast to one another, generally with direction, though not necessarily with a goal in mind. I mention this as a point of letting you know where I stand, so that you understand that, were I to write something about ‘all of our arguing,’ you’d allow for the context to have a positive feeling. Having this many people comment about anything I’ve said at once is new to me, and as I work out how best to moderate, listen, and encourage more, you will probably sense that I am quite happy to keep trying to see where people are coming from.
That seems a pretty good point to shut my typing-mouth for this point of the evening, and get on with my friends, who have now left me, wondering what the devil is so important that I’ve ignored them for the better part of an hour.
(meanwhile, I see that Chally has just begun defining a few of her own words in the lasest comment, and I had better catch up.)
To clarify, my list of ‘might’s was certainly not intended to imply that Tara was disingenuous or deluded (and tbh, I kinda resent that implication). It was to intervene in what Thomas clearly assumed her behaviour meant, which was that his behaviour was fine, by offering other potential explanations. I also think it’s problematic to code her as ‘disingenuous’ if she isn’t really fine with it. As many commenters have pointed out, there are many things that impede the articulation of unhappiness with being ogled; they don’t make *anyone* disingenuous. And as for ‘deluded’, I see nothing in my list that would suggest that.
And Thomas, discussion is fine. This isn’t really a discussion, though. You ask questions, without responding to what is being said. ‘Is there a respectful way to look at breasts’ is just a complete failure to engage with what so many women here have said; most of which have allowed that there are contexts and ways of looking (which are NOT defined by you) which might be respectful, but until you know what they are, and this will depend upon the individual women you are engaging with, stop assuming that what you’re doing is harmless, because it has very serious effects on many women. You have acknowledged nothing of this, and allowed none of it to permeate through to actually challenge how you think about women, or how you engage with them. In this respect, you’re not discussing, you’re protecting yourself from criticism by asking questions which deliberately *don’t* take other people’s perspectives into account. And in my classrooms, or even in my conversations in pubs, you’d be called out on that. Pretty fucking fast.
Damn fine point Wildly. I will have to beg pardon on a few things, and beg it on behalf of being new to the blog forum (this, my own, now in it’s, what, 3rd week?). Frankly, lot of really good point made from some very different perspectives, and I think, in trying to address everything, I have let slip some important individual points. Please bare with me, as I try to work through this.
I hear what you’re saying, that the terms of respect are subjective and not to be assumed by the looker (ie. me, in the case of this essay), that ignoring this risks hurting the girl should I look and she takes offence (here “offence” will have to do to describe the myriad ill-receivings of said action), and that, so far, I have not shown a whole lot of acknowledgement of these contentions (please pardon word ‘contentions.’ not intended to mean ‘untrue’ or ‘alleged’ or anything. Just a place holder for ‘people points’).
Please know I am actively giving the subject much thought. In fact, I’ve been mentioning it to many friends, boys and girls alike, and am hoping that a few of them pipe up here. Perhaps a general polling of friends, especially the girls, will help me reflect. I’m hoping a few of them who know me well will tell me how and if I am offending, or if, perhaps, it’s just my essay and its presentation which are offensive and, in fact, my actions, in person, have seemed generally respectful on their terms.
Before I go into my intended comment, I’d just like to point out that not every woman has a problem with this in every context. Especially when its someone they know. So that connection of friendship with Tara may be all that’s required to not see such viewing as negative. Whereas if a random guy ogled her, she might have a completely different viewpoint. Of course, just because she’s okay with you doing that, Sophist, does not mean others are. Different folk have different experiences and different mindsets. Such things will affect everything.
This is sort of the crux here and an important part of the self analysis I’m assuming you want to achieve. You know quite well that you don’t like all the same things that other guys do and that it’s impossible to make a blanket statement about what you or other guys would like based on your wants or the wants of a guy who isn’t you.
So why, and this is important, why are you trying to find a way to apply a blanket statement over all women on the concept of looking at breasts? Because frankly, unless you know the girl in question you have absolutely no way to know if her mindset and experiences would make even the most subtle boob glance, through sunglasses, while wearing a feminism praising t-shirt will still cause a seriously negative reaction.
Let me ask this. Are you willing to, before you look at my or someone else’s breasts, ask us whether or not we’re okay with it? For every single woman you want to stare at, are you willing to actually ask if that’s okay? Willing to ask beforehand, obtaining consent (or if consent is not given being willing to walk away without seeing boobs) is respectful. Looking without obtaining consent is not.
Because you see, you can’t know if we’re okay with it. And the comments here show that a lot of women are not okay with it. So there is no respectful way to just look. Because just looking removes the basic human courtesy of finding out if your look is appreciated. Being stared at isn’t fun, whether the reasons are negative or positive. It can be embarrassing, anxiety inducing and in a world where many guys are definably a danger to a woman, it can be scary. With a society like this, your eyes carry a lot more negative influence then they would in a purely egalitarian society with no unfair power dynamic. And that is the answer to your question. The respectful way to look is to ask, “are you okay with me looking at your chest for a quick second?” and then only looking if she says yes.
If you aren’t willing to do that, then you are not respectful of women. If you aren’t willing to put your fascination and want to look at breasts under a woman’s self determination and consent in priority, then you are dehumanizing that woman.
And I’ve got a pretty good perspective on this. I’m an MtF trans woman. I was raised as a guy, with all the guy socialization that entails. I am attracted to entirely women and I had the same issue you did: male privilege coupled with that fascination (actually I was a bit worse off, not only was I attracted, but in some cases I stared out of jealousy). As soon as I transitioned physically, the social field changed (I guess I “pass” well and am pretty attractive now, judging from what people say). Suddenly I was being stared at. Being exposed constantly to people staring at me was a nervous thing. It was stressful. It put me in a spotlight, with constant reminders that everyone was noticing me, in such a way that I felt under a lot of pressure. And the simple fact that these people were just ogling me, had no interest in who I was, my thoughts, even whether I cared about what they were doing.
The first time I told a guy, “my face is up here, man” I got called a bitch. It was a shock. I used to joke about that phrase before I transitioned but now I really see how unpleasant it can be.
And that extra bit of perspective was all I needed to not stare anymore. Knowing what its like cuts through the privilege and entitlement. Because in the end, that’s what it is. I’m still attracted to women. I love my partner’s breasts. They’re a little less fascinating now that I have my own set, but the attraction is still there. So neither of those are responsible for you looking. What’s responsible is you not having that perspective and still trying to gain a perspective close to that so you can see past your privilege as a male. I’m glad you’re trying and I’m glad you put this post up.
This willingness to subject your views on the subject to outside commentary from women of all types is a really good sign for you. I applaud your attempts to step outside the safe zone of privilege and try to see things on the other side.
Lord above. Ok, I too have what someone else referred to as a ‘rack of doom’. In no way do I have a problem with my breasts or with their being ‘appreciated’. The thing is men do not *have* to be such idiots about ‘noticing’/'appreciating’. I refuse to believe it’s my vastly superior intellect and problem solving skills that allow me to see/notice/appreciate any number of people and various physical attributes of theirs while I am out and about. And hey, all without standing slackjawed and drooling/making noises/making comments! Holy CRAP! Giving people the space to go about their day uninterrupted by another individuals unwillingness to stop being a selfish childish jerk? Incredible. So while I have managed to find delight in being in proximity to all kinds of beauty and needing to give myself a stern talking to (in my head and SUBTLY) in order to focus on my business meeting with the gorgeous man with the lovely shoulders I still manage not to treat him *as* the professional client (I work in a law firm) he is, as the human he is and give him the space to interact with me withOUT me staring at his crotch and going ‘Well I wonder what’s in THERE? Jeez what shape do you reckon it is?’. So dear sophist, haver of wisdom, I hope that at some point you can ken the difference between noticing/feeling attraction and simultaneously having a modicum of respect and self restraint and being a leery pervy fuckwit who refuses to understand the blazingly obvious difference. It seems that I am getting grouchy at your continuing faux-confusion over that difference, as having this spectacular rack I am *more* than happy to know any single person thinks they’re wonderful – so what, so do I. What I do NOT like is men who think that STARRRRRING is ok/necessary/’natural’. Looking and noticing, fine. Having happy warm feelings fine. But keep it the FUCK out of my face unless you’d like my anger in yours. And don’t go around pretending you don’t understand the difference. At least while you call yourself a ‘sophist’.
Shit. Still manage to treat him ‘as’ the professional client he is.
“I refuse to believe it’s my vastly superior intellect and problem solving skills that allow me to see/notice/appreciate any number of people and various physical attributes of theirs while I am out and about. And hey, all without standing slackjawed and drooling/making noises/making comments! Holy CRAP! Giving people the space to go about their day uninterrupted by another individuals unwillingness to stop being a selfish childish jerk? ”
Well said FP (shortening ‘fuckpoliteness’ for purpose of ease and, just in case someone didn’t know who I was replying to, avoiding confusion of a seemingly random explative. I think this just about sums up how I feel about it. Oggling bad, unassuming notice not. As far as pretending not to know the difference, I sure didn’t think that’s what I was saying. As I wrote before, I’m a big fan of asking a lot of questions, most of which seem dumb, and a lot of which just try to get to the basics of what other people believe. In the process, it seems that besides the obvious disaproval of most of my musings, they aren’t liking the questions much. Fair enough.
Besides the ‘grouchyness’ (or maybe thanks to it) I think your point has put things quite clearly, and I think it sums the conversation up nicely. Having said that, I’m eager to take a break from breasts, altogether, so that I’ve any chance on furthering other subjects (I’ve got a lovely piece on gardening to work on, for example).
Recursive, very thoughtful post indeed, and certainly an interesting perspective. I appreciate your comment on making a ‘blanket’ rule. To that I would say, absolutely, one can’t simply apply some simple set of guidelines for what is respectful and what is not to all people, except to say that it is respectful to find out how each of them might approach a subject. So no, I don’t think I’d feel comfortable staring at the tits of a girl I just met who I didn’t know was alright with that. As for the asking them, I feel like I have, but what a funny conversation that would be! What’s especially funny to me, I guess in its irony, is that after all this talk about it, what’s right, what’s not, and especially about having the trust of the woman in question and getting to know her specific opinion and experience, I sort of imagine that, were I to write an essay saying, “gentlemen, if you’d like to stare, ask them…” I’d have 25 more posts saying I was an objectifying, priveleged, asshole (all of which I have not entirely ruled out I may well be). Anyways, great thought, and I’ll give it some thought, and maybe try it out on a friend who wouldn’t immediately slap me so that I have a chance to talk about the silly question.
As applausing my efforts to broach a subject and, in turn, open myself for a critique, thanks. I wasn’t looking for applause, just interest from other people, in my writing, and in the ideas, and I am pleased so many people took the time to think on the subject, even if many of them felt that perspective was totally wrong. I’m sorry that, sometimes, it seemed to get so personal, and wish I were better at broaching subjects intellectually in such a way that didn’t run the risk of enraging people past the point of wanting to read on (I haven’t heard much on my pieces on friendship or fathers, except from a few lovely people). I suppose I’ve still a lot to learn.
Again, really good points, thanks Recursive-P
So long as we’re on the subject. Here is a bit by a friend of mine. Please be kind to her, she is lovely, thoughtful, and kind.
Milking it for Free
Good christ! What is wrong with you women? Of course we’re going to look. They’re protruding from your chest for god-sake! Besides, it’s not like we’re touching them or anything! We’re only looking. We’re not staring. It’s just a glance… done repeatedly.
You could be mad if we had x-ray vision, or were peeping in on you while you were changing or something, but that’s not what this is about. This is about taking pleasure in the beautiful things around you. I mean, all we’re really seeing is stitch, cloth, and cleavage! Oh, how evil of us!
We boob-men are appreciative of them. They are but a piece of the whole. We are merely making keen observation so as to understand, in a deeper, more complete, manner, the women we meet. Would you really deny us the desire to get to know the whole person, and not just the person on the outside?
And you know what they say, “The fastest way to a woman’s heart is through the chest.”
Weaver “Show us your titties! We want to get to know you better!” Write
@Weaverwrite
Would you stare at someone with a cleft lip? It’s only a look. It’s not like you’re touching or anything, just looking. I mean, yeesh, they have a freaking hole in their lip; how are you NOT supposed to notice that? Using your logic, it should be ok, because it’s just skin. You’re just trying to get to know the person better. It’s ok to stare at people, right?
See, I disagree with that. If you wouldn’t stare at someone with a cleft lip (even if you had a fetish for that), why would you stare at a woman’s breasts? I’ll put it simply: it’s rude. It’s rude and unwanted and if you had been paying attention to the comments, you’d realize that it makes women feel bad. It doesn’t matter what the intention is; all it does is make women more self-conscious of their bodies (as if they weren’t self-conscious enough) and make them feel uncomfortable. It’s pleasure for you, pain for them. It doesn’t matter if you’re doing it to “know them on a deeper level” (why do you need to know about someone’s boobs to know them on a personal level? Christ.); they don’t feel comfortable, so you should stop. There are women who would appreciate you looking at and touching their breasts, but you should not assume these women are the majority because you are going to piss off (and scare; having men you don’t know scare at you is scary) many, many women.
~Holly Steel
This post really made me feel so depressed, and the followup comments didn’t help. If you want to be seen as respectful, respect us. If our feelings are important, stop trying to rationalize them away with my-girlfriend-said’s. I don’t want you looking at my tits. I don’t want you calling at me from across the street or honking your horn as you drive by. I don’t want you making faux-edgy misogynist jokes (such as the ones in this post) and expecting me to giggle cutely at your cleverness. Women who want you to look at their tits will make that known to you (by their words and actions, NOT their genetics and dress). When you’re unsure, don’t err on the side of getting what you want when you very well know that also means erring on the side of making us feel like shit.
Weaverwrite — there is no doubt in my mind why you are “serially single”.
Thanks, Meg. The essay was written in a spirit of fun, a fun which I gagued would make a lot of my girlfriends and guyfriends have a laugh. It did, for better or worse, and I am pleased about all of the investment people have shown in their comments. As for a proper response, it seems I’m all titted out on this topic and am giving it a good, long break, maybe until “Respectful Breastman: Revised/part2/a-followup.”
Meanwhile, I’ve noticed few of my audience moving on to any other posts leading me to believe they have either written me off with the breast essay (ie, just don’t care to look further into the blog or just think I’m a witless asshole or aren’t the curious types) or aren’t inspired by my other, non-breast related topics. I hate to think this suggests that I should pander to a breast-enraged audience. Fortunately, my goal isn’t a crowd, just a few interested people, so I’ll keep on with personal histories and observations about my local society.
To be perfectly clear on this subject.. never have I met a more respectful, loving, or clever man, and to imply that he would be serially single due to some deficit is simply shallow… Further, I would appreciate it if you would leave me out of your definition of “us”. Not all women feel put upon by the existence of men in this world, nor do we all “feel like shit” if we happen to catch a man glancing in our direction. Personally, I accept that men are visual creatures and that they are going to look, and to say that that can’t be done respectfully denies both their biology and modern man’s efforts to curb that biology in respect of modern woman’s feelings. If you are sick of men making assumptions about all women based on their collective experience of them you should offer them the same respect. All men are not dogs or assholes. All men are not attempting to hurt or disrespect you by glancing in your direction.
Signed,
A Respectful Woman With Breasts
First the poor webman, now my antagonists. You’re on a roll, Lindsey.
not the only one: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211479/Proof-womens-chests-really-mans-fixation.html
Wow, my tendency for “breast ogling” might not match the Sophist’s in magnitude, but I don’t make any special attempt to avert my eyes from a woman’s breasts for fear that she might otherwise feel “objectified.”
I’m going to have to disagree with Chally here… (i.e. “your intentions are irrelevant b/c you’re in a position of power, which makes a woman/girl feel disrespected when her breasts are seen, etc”)… pardon me, but wtf are you talking about?
First of all, intentions are *entirely* relevant to this context. No girl is going to interpret a viewing of her breasts from a creepy suspected rapist in the same way she would from a trusted friend. Secondly, this power asymmetry that you presuppose does not apply universally to every interaction between a man and woman, nor does it always have a bearing on how a woman interprets an outside evaluation of her physical features. Finally, it strikes me as odd that you agree with Thomas that a man may appreciate a woman’s physical beauty while at the same time losing no respect for her humanity or objective non-physical merits, yet you would deny women the capability of discerning the difference between a man who is doing just that, and some Jersey Shore-esque douche who’s merely dreaming about fucking a piece of meat. If you feel “objectified and disrespected” every time you notice someone else noticing your physical features, I’m sorry to hear that. It must have been quite an unpleasant post-pubescent life indeed. But I don’t believe your experience or interpretations are generalizable across the entire female population by any stretch.
now that it’s been a while, can I giggle over the fact that you were attacked over “boobs”? is it time, yet?
I think it’s safe now, yes. Giggle away.
I don’t know that I have anything useful to add to this discussion except for one open question: To what extent does the fear of recrimination, objectification and transgression exoticize the boob? Is the condemnation of ogling part of its cause?
Hm. Maybe I should have looked at the dates on these posts… Oh well.
No, you’re fine. Relatively speaking, it is an old post, but it’s still, it seems, a fresh topic.
I hear what you’re saying. If we just saw the boobs, like so many National Geographic ethnographies, would we still be interested in it. I think, to some degree, yes, but that’s sort of precisely my question. What if all women were to just walk around topless (at various topless affairs like beaches, or wherever men might, not the workplace, for example)? I think we might obsess a bit less.
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